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Choke

Mr Dutton has made me sad

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1 hour ago, Biffen said:

I must confess that as a left wing radical youth I opposed men like Dutton.

As the labour movement finds transgender transitioning, Refugees and a leader with a pronounced speech impediment to be the way forward I find myself drawn  now towards those who speak the truth.

Duttons denouncement of the Lebanese families who support terrorism and have caused 70% of the terrorist acts here won me over.

Multiculturalism works only when you have a reasonably compatible intake of people.

I like Brexit and I'm enthused byTrumps victory .

 The white colonial has brought with him the rule of law, medicine as we know it, and respectable governance wherever he lives.

We hear a lot of criticism of whitey but as far as colonising goes the British and French improved the world.

Africa,India and the Middle East would be nowhere without them.A fact that irks many of them but they would still be flogging spice with an abacus if  the white colonial devil didn't come proselytising .

Waleed Aly will come out and knock Duttons speech in parliament which is his right.

Waleed Aly reads co written speeches seeking mass appeal. He is wedged by facts. He speaks of Colonialism as the chief destroyer of the magnificent Ottoman Empire and its revered institutions.

Tough luck to the Ottomans.

I really don't see an alternative to Western Democracy in  a world still under the spell of ancient religion.

 

 

 

 I grew up in a family that espoused the politics of the Labor Left. The Labor Left as it stands today appears a very different beast, hijacked by peripheral issues that cannot hope to resonate with families wanting to get by. And the parallels with the US Election are clear. You mentioned Trump Biffen but the story for mine of that election was Clinton and her absolute disregard or misreading of the electorate. She ignored rustbelt States, choosing not to campaign at all in a couple of them  and thought it would be advantageous to have Jay Z and Katie Perry 'sing' her laurels which appeared to be little more than  'I'm not him, I'm a woman, and it's my turn'. For the UK see Brexit.

Meanwhile, in Victoria, Nixon and her predecessor wouldn't release crime figures around ethnicity and violent assaults, those who questioned the wisdom of the immigration policy were branded racists, and the bulk of the community (which also includes lefties like myself) now realise that we're in a pickle. But, of course, I blame the middle aged white man. It's our fault.

Edited by Return to Glory
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On 28/12/2016 at 7:22 AM, Biffen said:

We hear a lot of criticism of whitey but as far as colonising goes the British and French improved the world.

Africa,India and the Middle East would be nowhere without them.A fact that irks many of them but they would still be flogging spice with an abacus if  the white colonial devil didn't come proselytising .

 

So posters get banned for a month for having fairly harmless digs at each other but this kind of utter racist rubbish is ok?

Farce.

 

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43 minutes ago, stuie said:

So posters get banned for a month for having fairly harmless digs at each other but this kind of utter racist rubbish is ok?

Farce.

 

The Ottoman Empire was lovely unless you were not a Muslim.

Fortunately the dominance of British traders changed all that.

I can't change history but I can teach it to you if you wish.

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14 minutes ago, Biffen said:

The Ottoman Empire was lovely unless you were not a Muslim.

Fortunately the dominance of British traders changed all that.

I can't change history but I can teach it to you if you wish.

You weren't talking history, you were speculating that certain races would never have dragged themselves from the dark ages if it wasn't for whites.

Racism is the word you're looking for, not history.

 

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3 hours ago, stuie said:

You weren't talking history, you were speculating that certain races would never have dragged themselves from the dark ages if it wasn't for whites.

Racism is the word you're looking for, not history.

 

I couldn't possibly teach you about gun boat diplomacy, the crusades, the Jardines, the Suez etc if you keep on berating me with ridiculous extrapolations of my unexpressed thoughts.

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On 28/12/2016 at 7:22 AM, Biffen said:

Africa,India and the Middle East would be nowhere without them.A fact that irks many of them but they would still be flogging spice with an abacus if  the white colonial devil didn't come proselytising .

 

 

That's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

You present yourself as some sort of history expert, but don't at all acknowledge that significant contributions to several disciplines including mathematics, astronomy and physics were made by Middle Easterners and Indians.

This guy for example was well beyond an abacus.

IIRC the number zero was fist developed in Babylon, which is now Iraq.

Europe had a dark age while the Middle East studied maths and science. A few hundred years later and the roles were reversed, with the Caliphate rising and the European Renaissance.

Happy to have an informed discussion on history, but can we do it without ridiculous, and yes I'm sorry but racist, statements like the one made above? You're one step away from espousing the Noble Savage.

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On 12/28/2016 at 7:22 AM, Biffen said:

I must confess that as a left wing radical youth I opposed men like Dutton.

As the labour movement finds transgender transitioning, Refugees and a leader with a pronounced speech impediment to be the way forward I find myself drawn  now towards those who speak the truth.

Duttons denouncement of the Lebanese families who support terrorism and have caused 70% of the terrorist acts here won me over.

Multiculturalism works only when you have a reasonably compatible intake of people.

I like Brexit and I'm enthused byTrumps victory .

 The white colonial has brought with him the rule of law, medicine as we know it, and respectable governance wherever he lives.

We hear a lot of criticism of whitey but as far as colonising goes the British and French improved the world.

Africa,India and the Middle East would be nowhere without them.A fact that irks many of them but they would still be flogging spice with an abacus if  the white colonial devil didn't come proselytising .

Waleed Aly will come out and knock Duttons speech in parliament which is his right.

Waleed Aly reads co written speeches seeking mass appeal. He is wedged by facts. He speaks of Colonialism as the chief destroyer of the magnificent Ottoman Empire and its revered institutions.

Tough luck to the Ottomans.

I really don't see an alternative to Western Democracy in  a world still under the spell of ancient religion.

So Christianity isn't an ancient religion?  Just remember both world wars, Hiroshima, the persecution of Jews etc, Iraq, Vietnam were all wars foisted on the world by another ancient religion, probably the most oppressive of the lot, christianity. I thought you had more brains, Biffo.

 

 

So Christianity isn't an ancient religion?  Just remember both world wars, Hiroshima, the persecution of Jews etc, Iraq, Vietnam were all wars foisted on the world by another ancient religion, probably the most oppressive of the lot, christianity. I thought you had more brains, Biffo.

Edited by dieter
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33 minutes ago, Choke said:

 

That's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

You present yourself as some sort of history expert, but don't at all acknowledge that significant contributions to several disciplines including mathematics, astronomy and physics were made by Middle Easterners and Indians.

This guy for example was well beyond an abacus.

IIRC the number zero was fist developed in Babylon, which is now Iraq.

Europe had a dark age while the Middle East studied maths and science. A few hundred years later and the roles were reversed, with the Caliphate rising and the European Renaissance.

Happy to have an informed discussion on history, but can we do it without ridiculous, and yes I'm sorry but racist, statements like the one made above? You're one step away from espousing the Noble Savage.

Very well said.

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On 12/29/2016 at 0:41 PM, Biffen said:

The Ottoman Empire was lovely unless you were not a Muslim.

Fortunately the dominance of British traders changed all that.

I can't change history but I can teach it to you if you wish.

Also, Mr Biff, that's factually very incorrect. The Ottomans were the ONLY colonial power who allowed you to speak your own language, observe your own religion, as long as you paid your taxes. Christians and Jews were fine under the Ottomans.

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On 12/29/2016 at 11:54 AM, stuie said:

So posters get banned for a month for having fairly harmless digs at each other but this kind of utter racist rubbish is ok?

Farce.

 

WEll said, Bro.

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Choke, 

Most of the progress in Astronomy , Physics, Mathematics you speak of were not in fact Muslim or Ottoman but Sumerian and later Greek.Later European.

Dieter, the freedoms the Christians endured were not without significant loss of life.

You have both used trite arguments that neglect Ottoman slavery,conquest and destruction of other cultures .

 

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13 hours ago, dieter said:

Also, Mr Biff, that's factually very incorrect. The Ottomans were the ONLY colonial power who allowed you to speak your own language, observe your own religion, as long as you paid your taxes. Christians and Jews were fine under the Ottomans.

Didn't the Ottoman Empire also have female slaves up until 1908? 

Edited by Ethan Tremblay

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3 hours ago, Biffen said:

Choke, 

Most of the progress in Astronomy , Physics, Mathematics you speak of were not in fact Muslim or Ottoman but Sumerian and later Greek.Later European.

Dieter, the freedoms the Christians endured were not without significant loss of life.

You have both used trite arguments that neglect Ottoman slavery,conquest and destruction of other cultures .

 

Correct about the Sumerian and Greek origins of Astronomy, Physics and Mathematics. It's just that during the European Dark Ages, when libraries were either closed or burned, the Moors of Spain became the guardians of that Tradition, a tradition which would have disappeared from the very dark days of Europe.

And now, Mr Biff, as though Ottoman conquest, slavery and destruction ever reached anywhere near the scale of, well, even if we just mentioned the British Empire. But we won't stop there, let's get the Dutch, the Portugese, the Spanish, the Belgians and last but not least because they were the last at spinning the Empire net, the Germans.

Give me a break, man.

 

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30 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Didn't the Ottoman Empire also have female slaves up until 1908? 

And the Brits, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Portuguese, why, they gave the world infrastructure, didn't they. Mistreated no-one. The signs in British controlled China, 'No dogs, no Chinamen' outside parks. But, oh dear, the Ottomans had female slaves. can't have that.

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33 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Didn't the Ottoman Empire also have female slaves up until 1908? 

Didn't "whitey" class Indigenous Australians as animals up until 1967?

 

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7 hours ago, stuie said:

Didn't "whitey" class Indigenous Australians as animals up until 1967?

 

This has no relevance to the discussion.

You are talking about constitutional existence and we are discussing the wonders of the Ottoman empire.

 

Edited by Biffen
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6 hours ago, dieter said:

And the Brits, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Portuguese, why, they gave the world infrastructure, didn't they. Mistreated no-one. The signs in British controlled China, 'No dogs, no Chinamen' outside parks. But, oh dear, the Ottomans had female slaves. can't have that.

Good point Dieter.

It was not just the British colonising the world.

What the British and French colonisers did bring was a court system and the bare bones of a judiciary, based on a presumption of fairness and liberty.

Ethan is correct in his statement that you could freely purchase a woman or girl in Istanbul in 1908.

Now you can be betrothed to a teen from Lebanon,without her say in 2017!

Apart  Sufic knowledge and tradition  which was suppressed ,does  the Moorish tradition include Copernicus,Newton,Galileo and Michelangelo ?

There is this myth that persists about Islamic culture giving birth to some enlightening process but I can assure you the Mosque teaches the Koran only . They never delve into politics- ask any Imam today.

The murder and ransacking of Christians, Berbers,Jews,Moors and Farsi cutlires in the Ottomans persisted for centuries.The Greeks were Ottoman slaves until British intervention.

Slavery still exists today as much as it ever did but you'll find it in Muslim counties and in Asia- it's actually a big part of Islam .

Theft,conquest and violent retribution are a part of the mythology of the Arabic countries."Ali Baba" for example .

So is the complete subjugation of women, corporal and capital punishment.

Instead of feeling white guilt about colonisation , have a look at the historical traits each Empire offered.

Europeans in the Dark age evolved.

Islam has not evolved and many of its followers wish it to go backwards.

India would be Muslim without Britain splitting it .They would have killed the Hindus and Christians there too.

We would be French if La Perouse was better armed than Captain Cook.

Not only were Arab traders less advanced- they still are today which is why you can expect these tin pot kingdoms in the Middle East to crumble and for Islam to keep splitting itself in this process the west has already experienced in Christianity that we know as enlightenment .

Islams war is playing out in front of our eyes but it's not my fault I can assure you.Its not Americas,or Btitains or yours or mine .

It is a culture coming from the actual Dark ages into the light  that is splitting Islam and its " institutions".

So yes, Islam would still be in the dark ages were it not going through this questioning of itself which we can view as a reformation , an enlightenment or the destruction of useless 8th century superstition.

 

Edited by Biffen
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2 hours ago, Biffen said:

Good point Dieter.

It was not just the British colonising the world.

What the British and French colonisers did bring was a court system and the bare bones of a judiciary, based on a presumption of fairness and liberty.

Ethan is correct in his statement that you could freely purchase a woman or girl in Istanbul in 1908.

Now you can be betrothed to a teen from Lebanon,without her say in 2017!

Apart  Sufic knowledge and tradition  which was suppressed ,does  the Moorish tradition include Copernicus,Newton,Galileo and Michelangelo ?

There is this myth that persists about Islamic culture giving birth to some enlightening process but I can assure you the Mosque teaches the Koran only . They never delve into politics- ask any Imam today.

The murder and ransacking of Christians, Berbers,Jews,Moors and Farsi cutlires in the Ottomans persisted for centuries.The Greeks were Ottoman slaves until British intervention.

Slavery still exists today as much as it ever did but you'll find it in Muslim counties and in Asia- it's actually a big part of Islam .

Theft,conquest and violent retribution are a part of the mythology of the Arabic countries."Ali Baba" for example .

So is the complete subjugation of women, corporal and capital punishment.

Instead of feeling white guilt about colonisation , have a look at the historical traits each Empire offered.

Europeans in the Dark age evolved.

Islam has not evolved and many of its followers wish it to go backwards.

India would be Muslim without Britain splitting it .They would have killed the Hindus and Christians there too.

We would be French if La Perouse was better armed than Captain Cook.

Not only were Arab traders less advanced- they still are today which is why you can expect these tin pot kingdoms in the Middle East to crumble and for Islam to keep splitting itself in this process the west has already experienced in Christianity that we know as enlightenment .

Islams war is playing out in front of our eyes but it's not my fault I can assure you.Its not Americas,or Btitains or yours or mine .

It is a culture coming from the actual Dark ages into the light  that is splitting Islam and its " institutions".

So yes, Islam would still be in the dark ages were it not going through this questioning of itself which we can view as a reformation , an enlightenment or the destruction of useless 8th century superstition.

 

Ah, Mr Biff. Now you're sounding like the "protocols of Zion' , the Jews have become the Muslims.

This fear/hatred of anything Muslim is entrenched in the so-called Christian Psyche. It's actually the new Anti-Semitism.

It also reminds me of the Catholic rants and fears about the evils of Communism.

Remember the Dominoes, Mr Biff? Mr Menzies and his idiot cronies wanted me to go to Vietnam to fight for the dominoes. Actually, they wanted me to go over and kill gooks. As Mr Calwell famously said, 'Two Wongs don't make a white.'

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9 hours ago, stuie said:

Didn't "whitey" class Indigenous Australians as animals up until 1967?

 

What's wrong with that?  Just ask that clown who appeared on that SBS show recently - David Oldfield.

But just remember, British and French Colonialism was superior because they left the countries they pilfered with infrastructure. ( So they could pilfer them more efficiently, I would have thought. I've yet to hear of a benevolent Colonialist.)

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3 hours ago, Biffen said:

This has no relevance to the discussion.

You are talking about constitutional existence and we are discussing the wonders of the Ottoman empire.

 

Translation: "Don't bring things up about whites when we are trying to raise them above all other races and cultures."

 

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Neither of you make a cogent point about the discussion which addresses European colonialism and Ottoman imperialism.

Im not discussing either Aboriginal genocide nor communism/ fascism nor race.

Dieter and Stu, you make a mockery of the Ottoman Empire by describing it as a race.

It was a clllection of Sultans and Tribes , fiefdoms and cleptocracies forced to submit to Istanbul which was of course once Greek, as was Optmetry, which I will point out for the edification of Choke.

If you can add something to the discussion without using the R word we may have a decent discussion about history and conquest.

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4 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Neither of you make a cogent point about the discussion which addresses European colonialism and Ottoman imperialism.

Im not discussing either Aboriginal genocide nor communism/ fascism nor race.

Dieter and Stu, you make a mockery of the Ottoman Empire by describing it as a race.

It was a clllection of Sultans and Tribes , fiefdoms and cleptocracies forced to submit to Istanbul which was of course once Greek, as was Optmetry, which I will point out for the edification of Choke.

If you can add something to the discussion without using the R word we may have a decent discussion about history and conquest.

No, actually the discussion was about your racist remarks on how POC would never have gotten anywhere without whites.

But sure, pedal backwards if you must.

 

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4 minutes ago, stuie said:

No, actually the discussion was about your racist remarks on how POC would never have gotten anywhere without whites.

But sure, pedal backwards if you must.

 

Your lack of genuine understanding is exceeded only by your noble ability to obfuscate it.

You have a tendency to ignore the facts in favour of turning everything into the Jerry Springer show.

The British Empire subjugated the Middle East  and controlled it's waters,and its spices and drugs.

America now controls these waters and the flow of its oil, which is the primary reason The Ottoman Empire is imploding as it question its Bedouin belief systems by comparison.

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1 minute ago, Biffen said:

Your lack of genuine understanding is exceeded only by your noble ability to obfuscate it.

You have a tendency to ignore the facts in favour of turning everything into the Jerry Springer show.

 

On 28/12/2016 at 7:22 AM, Biffen said:

Africa,India and the Middle East would be nowhere without them.A fact that irks many of them but they would still be flogging spice with an abacus if  the white colonial devil didn't come proselytising .

Racism. Simple as that.

 

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27 minutes ago, Biffen said:

 

Dieter and Stu, you make a mockery of the Ottoman Empire by describing it as a race.

It was a clllection of Sultans and Tribes , fiefdoms and cleptocracies forced to submit to Istanbul which was of course once Greek, as was Optmetry, which I will point out for the edification of Choke.

I

A, I've never claimed the Ottomans were a race.

Secondly, just as Istanbul was once Greek, Australia once belonged to the people who lived here. Kallinigrad was once Konigsberg, Danzig was Gdansk, Texas was Mexican, Los Angeles was a Mexican city. . 

Also, I don't understand why you want to defend Western Colonialism as a superior form of Colonialism. Surely they were all alike, rotten to the core.

Edited by dieter
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