Melbourne midfield ranked worst in AFL by Champion Data

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

2 hours ago, monoccular said:

???

I'm assuming Willmoy is referring to a substance that is currently illegal in the State of Victoria but favoured by reggae artists, uni students and peace activists the world over. It has a similar name to a current young Melbourne player who comes from a family with deep roots in bogan royalty. 

 

On on the other hand I may have spent too much time on the riddle thread

[Clayton van Oliver 1,658]

10 minutes ago, fndee said:

I'm assuming Willmoy is referring to a substance that is currently illegal in the State of Victoria but favoured by reggae artists, uni students and peace activists the world 

On on the other hand I may have spent too much time on the riddle thread

As did we all...

[Little Goffy 12,507]

I'm surprised that Viney is rated so low, presumably it is a matter of sustaining form over a period. Plus, there's no great evidence to suggest he creates especially damaging clearances or launches many scoring chances. His disposal efficiency is still low and there isn't a trade-off in his favour from having a big positive impact.

Jones I would've thought would be higher, too. But again he is just not that damaging most of the time.

Champion Data will likely fall madly in love with Angus Brayshaw once he gets some more fitness and racks up some more disposals. The rate at which his possessions become score-assists, effective inside 50s, score launches and the like is terrific. You'd argue that Petracca has the same kind of danger to his game.

At the moment our midfield has a few established top accumulators (Jones 28disp/5clr, Viney 26/6, Tyson 25,4) and a few young 'weapons' in Brayshaw and Petracca, with much fewer disposals to spin to gold. Plus the mystery beast Oliver.

 

As for Collingwood and Richmond's high ratings, and the Freo-Bulldogs comparison made prior to the season -

The power of Collingwood's midfield is demonstrated by the fact they were mostly competitive in 2016 despite have absolute gobshite forward and defense groups.

Richmond is practically defined by their tradition of having a great top end and then depth resembling the detritus of Big Day Out concerts. Right now they've got Cotchin, Prestia and Martin included in their main midfield group. All 3 are more potent than any 1 we've got at the moment, if you can leave the Cotchin-bashing aside for a second.

Going back to Fremantle and their anticipated rating for 2016. Neale, Hill, Mundy, Pearce and Barlow were pretty good in 2015, I hear. The they recruited Harley Bennell, and champion data could only go on his stats from play. And that Fyfe kid goes alright. I don't think there'd be many claiming their forward-line depth and sparkling defenders were the factors that took them close to glory, either.

Bulldogs are a slightly different deal. I'd argue two factors had them middle of the range of midfields at the end of 2015. First, many players were exciting, obviously terrific talents, but still not quite putting it all together, with each having different gaps in the combination of "control it, get it, use it, do it again". Exactly how we might look at Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw in 2017. The other factor is that a lot of the Bulldog's 2016 potency was built on flankers contributing really effectively in their roles as well as when they ran through or rotated through the midfield, which means their performance might not be considered part of the compared 'midfield' squad in 2016, let alone in 2015. The Bulldogs transformation from exciting to supreme was all about 'completing' the full package for already excellent players and having great depth which gave great tactical initiative.

Think of it like Jesse Hogan. If he comes out in 2017 and has an ideal set shot routine and never shows poor body language, all we'll remember from 2016 if that he was already great and kicked 40+ goals. The halo around him will outshine any memories of his youthful imperfections.

 

So... Champion Data are probably right, within their terms of reference. Collingwood and Richmond do have great top-end midfields, (but the floorboards have rotted through everywhere else). Fremantle did have an amazing midfield... during the 2016 pre-season. The Bulldog's midfield could only be called 'exciting but incomplete' based on their 2014-15 performance.

And, based on exposed form over the last couple of years, Melbourne's midfielders are nothing much to shout about. Other things being equal, they weren't generally going to win you a game.

But that time should come.

[doc roet 1,198]

All we need now is Budda Hocking & Sticks Kernahan to join the cartel.

[rjay 23,849]

3 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Richmond is practically defined by their tradition of having a great top end and then depth resembling the detritus of Big Day Out concerts. Right now they've got Cotchin, Prestia and Martin included in their main midfield group. All 3 are more potent than any 1 we've got at the moment, if you can leave the Cotchin-bashing aside for a second.

I would think Lewis is more potent and proven than any of these 3. Multiple premiership player and a big game match winner...that can't be said of any of the 3 Tiges.

Cotchin and Martin struggle in the big games and haven't won a final let alone a premiership. Prestia played in a team that couldn't win a game if Ablett didn't play.

Edited December 11, 2016 by rjay

[Drunkn167 5,093]

CD isn't reliable when it comes to this. For instance, because Caddy is ranked as an 'elite midfielder' he is given the same weight as Nat Fyfe, which obviously isn't right.

For a much better look at the statistics have a look here

https://thearcfooty.com/2016/12/11/how-much-do-midfields-improve-year-to-year/

To me this is much more representative of the current game, and has the Dee's at around the right spot, although I think we all believe it should increase again over the next few seasons

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

I think there is a very good reason for our midfield being ranked so low.  They say they are basing it on numbers over two years.  That would basically give us Vince and Jones who have played those two years at a high level and Viney at maybe a year and a half.  Who else is going to rate a mention over a two year period?  Petracca had a few brief stints, but his stats are nothing special.  Brayshaw spent almost the entire season injured this year.  Tyson had a shocking time in 2015.  Oliver is brand new and has only played a handful of games.  Melksham was suspended. 

Over the sample period, our midfield as it is currently listed has done virtually nothing.  Half of them haven't even played both years.  Of the guys who have, we already know that they aren't the absolute elite of the competition, so why get worked up?  What we have are a group of hard-working senior mids who fight for every ball and a crop of youngsters who show every sign of being future stars but haven't produced it yet at AFL level.  I don't think the analysis is that unfair when you actually look at the criteria and who we currently have on our list. 

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Pendlebury handballs to swan, who handballs to crisp he fumbles back to swan who kicks to pendlebury who handballs over to treloar who drops the ball and is cleaned up by swan  who kicks to  pendlebury who mis kicks and is cleaned up by viney who goals.

STATISTICS MEAN NOTHING!!!

[Dr. Gonzo 22,396]

On 10/12/2016 at 4:36 PM, doug williams said:

Try ad be objective and not so defensive.

Seriously, we do not have an A-grader in our midfield. I love Jonesy and young Viney and there is loads of potential which I am Salivating at the prospect of seeing develop but at least Treloar and Pendlebury have the stats to back up Champion Data

Some of the defensiveness on here is hilarious. Do people really think Champion Data rank players based solely on possessions? Pick up the Prospectus when it comes out and have a read, the game and stats are way more advanced than that.

[Breggsy 123]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Some of the defensiveness on here is hilarious. Do people really think Champion Data rank players based solely on possessions? Pick up the Prospectus when it comes out and have a read, the game and stats are way more advanced than that.

Agreed. The player rating system is different from fantasy points. SuperCoach measures possession and is scaled by things like effectiveness whereas player ratings try to apply chains to evaluate a players importance to a game

Over the past few years world wide there has been a push in sports statistics to move away from traditional 'static' statistics (in afl terms kicks marks handball etc) and towards a more dynamic statistics in the form of chains (possession chains). The idea is that these together these chains describe a match better than just kicks, marks etc and I agree this is the way to go.

unfortunately for cd, they are stuck halfway between, providing misleading stats like differentials and their plater ratings needs work. It is far too favourable for players in a position who's game is unconventional think nicnac getting a lot of ground ball or rance getting a lot of possessions in d50.

[Willmoy1947 3,759]

6 hours ago, monoccular said:

???

WEED

[Willmoy1947 3,759]

4 hours ago, fndee said:

I'm assuming Willmoy is referring to a substance that is currently illegal in the State of Victoria but favoured by reggae artists, uni students and peace activists the world over. It has a similar name to a current young Melbourne player who comes from a family with deep roots in bogan royalty. 

 

On on the other hand I may have spent too much time on the riddle thread

Yikes i learn something new every day.

[BrisbaneDemon 1,492]

When David King is called the champions data expert, you work out pretty quickly how high they're rated......

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

23 hours ago, SidVicious said:

Bring back Jimmy Magner and Shane Valenti - that should sort out any issues Champion Data has with our midfield.

One was told he was too short, the other is a premiership player.

One of the many list management stuff-ups over the past decade.

[Fat Tony 4,350]

Our midfield has a lot of potential, but it does not possess any elite players other than Max Gawn. And Champion Data have excluded ruckmen from its analysis. (This is a bit silly IMO given the ruckman is a key player in the midfield.)

Personally, I feel it is more accurate to be judging midfields using team statistics rather than assessing players individually. On the basis of clearances, hard ball gets and loose ball gets, the Dogs are far and away the best midfield and we are slightly above average.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

11 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Pendlebury handballs to swan, who handballs to crisp he fumbles back to swan who kicks to pendlebury who handballs over to treloar who drops the ball and is cleaned up by swan  who kicks to  pendlebury who mis kicks and is cleaned up by viney who goals.

STATISTICS MEAN NOTHING!!!

These stats do:

Round 4 Sunday, April 17
COLLvMELB Collingwood9.13 (67)Melbourne16.6 (102)	MCG3:20PM

Round 5 Sunday, April 24
MELBvRICH Melbourne20.9 (129)Richmond14.12 (96)	MCG7:10PM

Round 12 Monday, June 13
MELBvCOLL Melbourne16.8 (104)Collingwood8.10 (58)	MCG3:20PM

 

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

One was told he was too short, the other is a premiership player.

One of the many list management stuff-ups over the past decade.

One has probably the most damaging kicking skills up to 30-35m. The other was a turnover merchant

Edited December 11, 2016 by Mad_Melbourne

[Demons1858 1,657]

19 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

I think there is a very good reason for our midfield being ranked so low.  They say they are basing it on numbers over two years.  That would basically give us Vince and Jones who have played those two years at a high level and Viney at maybe a year and a half.  Who else is going to rate a mention over a two year period?  Petracca had a few brief stints, but his stats are nothing special.  Brayshaw spent almost the entire season injured this year.  Tyson had a shocking time in 2015.  Oliver is brand new and has only played a handful of games.  Melksham was suspended. 

Over the sample period, our midfield as it is currently listed has done virtually nothing.  Half of them haven't even played both years.  Of the guys who have, we already know that they aren't the absolute elite of the competition, so why get worked up?  What we have are a group of hard-working senior mids who fight for every ball and a crop of youngsters who show every sign of being future stars but haven't produced it yet at AFL level.  I don't think the analysis is that unfair when you actually look at the criteria and who we currently have on our list. 

The stats are the to create debate and banter which we all enjoy but it's all to do with the methodology. Given its based on the last 2 years - its no big deal. Vince didn't play entirely in the midfield this year either and Viney had his break out year this year. Very concerned for North Melb though given their midfield is a little more mature and lost harvey and wells

[pineapple dee 2,892]

30 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

The stats are the to create debate and banter which we all enjoy but it's all to do with the methodology. Given its based on the last 2 years - its no big deal. Vince didn't play entirely in the midfield this year either and Viney had his break out year this year. Very concerned for North Melb though given their midfield is a little more mature and lost harvey and wells

You are very new to Demonland, Demons1858, and you still have a shred of care and concern for another team. Most commendable, but don't waste any concern for the likes of North Melbourne. This is a team which has had the dees in a death grip for what seems like an eternity. If we beat the kangas by 20 goals next time we meet and their midfield has a collective 20 possessions for the game, I for one will be celebrating like there's no tomorrow. And if I'm any judge, so will everybody else in this madhouse called demonland.

[pineapple dee 2,892]

Here endeth the lesson

[Demons1858 1,657]

52 minutes ago, pineapple dee said:

You are very new to Demonland, Demons1858, and you still have a shred of care and concern for another team. Most commendable, but don't waste any concern for the likes of North Melbourne. This is a team which has had the dees in a death grip for what seems like an eternity. If we beat the kangas by 20 goals next time we meet and their midfield has a collective 20 possessions for the game, I for one will be celebrating like there's no tomorrow. And if I'm any judge, so will everybody else in this madhouse called demonland.

Still reminisce about the day we beat them in Vancouver 

[ijbfossil 77]

I am a pessimist but this is ridiculous.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

7 hours ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

One has probably the most damaging kicking skills up to 30-35m. The other was a turnover merchant

Daniel's kicking isn't that bad.

[Biffen 12,298]

They should've seen us in 2013.

[monoccular 16,009]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:13 PM, Demons1858 said:

Still reminisce about the day we beat them in Vancouver 

Interesting some of the names there. 

Andrew Dimitriou, Shaun Smith, North Melbourne.  

Young Viney for the Dees.

Memories.  

I must say my favorite win over them was the PF in 87.  Massive win, very wet, first finals win (first game even) in an eternity.