VFL Finals Are Important

[Deespicable 2,538]

Ok, it's fair to say that we are a real show in the VFL this year with our lack of AFL injuries and the rise of players such as Keilty and Scott adding to the depth of our Casey squad that includes experienced men such as Hutchins and Tim Smith, Munro and Morris. 

In the past however we seem to have wanted to just send half our players off for an early operation or to get them ready for an early return for the coming season and forget about Casey's ambitions.

But if we take "the AFL is all that matters" policy again, I'm sure it will really [censored] off all the Casey boys and Justin Plapp and prove a real de-harmoniser for next season.

Further to that, it will deny a number of players a key opportunity to show their form at Etihad or Port Melb in front of a big vocal finals crowd and thus potentially hurt their chances of finding another AFL club or pressing their claims at ours.

For example, we all can tell that guys such as Grimes and Dunn and Trenners are on the outer, but a good finals series helps their chances and increases interest from other clubs and we benefit from that because we can then trade rather than delist - and with Hibberd we may need an extra pick or player to sweeten the deal.

It also can help our younger guys develop - VFL finals is a huge step up in level from the normal season and is just what guys like Weideman and Hulett - not to mention Neil-Bullen, JKH, Oliver, White and Joel Smith need.

I just hope we don't do the dirty on Casey again. If the Weed and Hulett have to start their pre-season three weeks later, does it really matter, especially if they have picked up confidence from a breakout game in the finals?

[Biffen 12,298]

We won't do the dirty on Casey again this time.

We are a footy club again and there are no brainstorms coming from the boardroom .

[Dee man 299]

I completely agree and was going to post something very similar myself. Ask any sportsperson - a premiership is a premiership, regardless of what level it's won at. Winning a flag (and at the very least, getting deep finals experience) surely can do great things to unite a group of players, particularly young players, and set this club up well for the future.

You only need to look at the recent VFL success of teams like Box Hill (Hawthorn) and Geelong to realise the importance of having a strong and successful VFL side.

[What 18,810]

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

We won't do the dirty on Casey again this time.

We are a footy club again and there are no brainstorms coming from the boardroom .

 

Really hope so Biffen.  Not a good look how we have shafted Casey in the past come finals time.  

[Adzman 2,085]

Probably time our kids learn how to finals footy, even if it is in the VFL. 

Character is built in must win situations, which will come in handy for when the dees start to make a push for finals.

[Grapeviney 8,815]

Nah. The MFC has to come first, second and third on the priority list. End of story.

If that means giving players a taste of VFL finals, so be it, but if it means going in for early surgeries to be ready for day 1 of pre-season, that's what should happen. 

[CBDees 3,162]

Great reward for guys like Terlich (BOG and 4 goals last Saturday) who have continued to play their hearts out since being dropped to Casey even though they know that they are highly unlikely to be recalled to the Dees during their career. Also great for Weeds and Hulett to have finals experience in a senior comp. It will be great for morale overall to have (what are our effectively our seconds and thirds) end the season with Premierships in both the VFL and the Development League. Nice also for the coaching careers of Plapp, Cross etc. and as a vindification of our whole development structure.

[dee-tox 4,772]

7 hours ago, Dee man said:

 

You only need to look at the recent VFL success of teams like Box Hill (Hawthorn) and Geelong to realise the importance of having a strong and successful VFL side.

Didn't do the Bulldogs any harm in 2014 either.

[old55 21,216]

I used to think this but winning all those flags for Sandy in the 2000s didn't make any difference.

[CBDees 3,162]

15 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I used to think this but winning all those flags for Sandy in the 2000s didn't make any difference.

The difference between Sandy and Casey is that our game plans are more integrated now (e.g. The MFC pays the salary of Plapp and has more control).

[Pates 9,536]

10 minutes ago, CBDees said:

The difference between Sandy and Casey is that our game plans are more integrated now (e.g. The MFC pays the salary of Plapp and has more control).

Exactly what I was going to say. Back then we were two seperate organisations, at times with conflicting interests. Now Casey are more integrated with us, and we have a closer relationship with them.

Obviously I still feel the MFC comes first but the development gain by young players witnessing a rise in intensity come finals and the desperation the comes with it will be certainly beneficial. If they're fit and they qualify I say they play. Players like Grimes, Terlich, Trenners, Pedo, Dawes, and Michie also get opportunities to put their best feet forward in making the club want to keep them next year. Obviously if there are question marks on their fitness then they get put in cotton wool for next year.

[Nasher 33,047]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

I used to think this but winning all those flags for Sandy in the 2000s didn't make any difference.

Same.  I also used to think of Sandy as a separate club who we were in a mutually beneficial alignment with, therefore assisting their success should be one of our goals.

For whatever reason, my view of the Casey alignment has evolved past that.  They're our vehicle and nothing more.  Their coach is an MFC employee, with a clear mandate to develop our seconds players.  They play our game plan.  They're marginal financially and probably don't have much future without the MFC.  

So in answer to the question: do whatever is best for the MFC.  I think just from a being supportive of players point of view I'd let the players who have been playing there all year and who clearly won't be at the club next year (Grimes, Terlich, Newton, Michie, Trengove? etc) compete in the finals, but for the rest I'd treat it on a case by case basis.  Certainly I'd expect the younger players such as Oliver to be put on ice.

All that said, it would be nice to see Casey round out a solid year with a strong finals campaign, but it's secondary to me and I don't care if it doesn't happen.

[old dee 22,815]

6 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Same.  I also used to think of Sandy as a separate club who we were in a mutually beneficial alignment with, therefore assisting their success should be one of our goals.

For whatever reason, my view of the Casey alignment has evolved past that.  They're our vehicle and nothing more.  Their coach is an MFC employee, with a clear mandate to develop our seconds players.  They play our game plan.  They're marginal financially and probably don't have much future without the MFC.  

So in answer to the question: do whatever is best for the MFC.  I think just from a being supportive of players point of view I'd let the players who have been playing there all year and who clearly won't be at the club next year (Grimes, Terlich, Newton, Michie, Trengove? etc) compete in the finals, but for the rest I'd treat it on a case by case basis.  Certainly I'd expect the younger players such as Oliver to be put on ice.

All that said, it would be nice to see Casey round out a solid year with a strong finals campaign, but it's secondary to me and I don't care if it doesn't happen.

I do Nasher this could be the first  time in 15 years that the MFC is associated with winning finals and potentially the GF.

I want the players to get the feeling of what a winning GF feels like. I also want to go and cheer along a bunch of winners.

I want the winning feeling back even if it is only our seconds.

[KingDingAling 3,589]

 Of course they are important. I don't think it is a matter of helping them - or not helping them. But a matter of finding the right balance. .

[Dee-licious 1,800]

A big part about it in the past was injuries (which we havent had a heap of this year) and dropping players back to the 2's and giving exposure to others so we lost eligibility. The eligibility is a little confusing, but seems that you need to play at least 6 Casey games (if we dont make AFL finals.....). Also I cant find the number of AFL players we are allowed, but I think it is 16? I looked back on some past years and our players who were eligible was quite low compared to this year. 

So that leaves us with 14 who have played 6 Casey games and I dont think any are under any injury clouds that we know of. 

White Dunn 
Garland Smith Terlich
Newton ANB Grimes
Hulett Weiderman King
Spencer Trengove Michie

And then possibly (with 5 games to go)

Played 5 - Pedersen, O-Mac, Brayshaw
Played 4 - Oliver, 
Played 3 - Jones, Dawes, Petracca
Played 2 - JKH, Bugg, Kennedy, Stretch, Garlett
Played 1 - Salem, AVB

I think Pedersen and JKH will get their 6 with Oliver being a possibility. I'd expect that Brayshaw, Petracca, and Garlett will play the rest of the season with the Dees, that Bugg, Kennedy, and Stretch wont play enough in the 2's to make up 6. Dawes and Jones are anybody's guess. Salem and AVB would need to play the next 5 consecutive games at Casey which I cant see happening, because if they are not rested they'd be elevated by the Carlton game. 

Hopefully we'll have a strong 16 out there each week. Who knows, the Casey Grand Final square might line up Brayshaw, Oliver and Trengove. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Dee-licious

[drdrake 3,035]

It is very important this year and as previously stated more for the two sides our older brigade that have been with our club through a very tough period that are facing a possible exit from the club at years end plus the boast it will give a number of 1-3rd year players. 

[old55 21,216]

I've probably missed a few.  I thought premiership success and culture would benefit MFC but it didn't.

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2000

Crowd: 8,652 @ Waverley Park

Sandringham	4.6.30	8.10.58	11.14.80	15.18.108
North Ballarat	0.5.5	3.5.23	5.8.38	11.11.77

Goals:   Saunter 6, Templeton 2, B. Beams 2, S.Pitt 2, Haynes 1, L.Williams 1, S. Febey 1

Best:  Lidell, Pitt, Maloney, Febey, Haynes, Macgeorge

Norm Goss Medal: R.Maloney

B:	M.Grant	A.Coghlan	H.Tregear
HB:	T.Broadbridge	R.Hayward	C.Liddell
C:	A.Gehling	D.Macgeorge	R.Maloney
HF:	S.Pitt	C.Templeton	M.Febey
F:	B.Beams	N.Saunter	M.Haynes
FOLL:	J.Shanahan	S.Godfrey	C.McKellar
I/C:	B.Oakley	D.Lynch	S.Chilsholm
	L.Williams
COACH:	G.Yeats

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2004

Crowd: 8,196 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	3.3.21	7.7.49	9.11.63	9.13.67
Port Melb	2.3.15	36.5.41	7.7.49	9.9.63

Goals:   Sautner 4, Williams 2, Crowe, Gallagher, Sylvia

Best:  Rigoni, Sylvia, Bell, Crowe, Sautner, Fisher

Norm Goss Medal: G.Rigoni

B:	D.Bell	R.Ferguson	N.Carroll
HB:	T.Broadbridge	C.Lamb	P.Walsh
C:	D.Gallagher	G.Rigoni	C.Liddell ©
HF:	L.Williams	R.Crowe	T.Conroy
F:	S.Armstrong	N.Sautner	C.Sylvia
FOLL:	M.Jamar	S.O'Keefe	A.Fisher
I/C:	A.Bishop	M.Warnock	M.Gadsden
	A.Biddlecombe
COACH:	M.Williams

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2005

Crowd: 9,000 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	2.4.16	4.6.30	9.12.66	11.17.83
Werribee	3.1.19	4.6.30	5.7.37	11.8.74

Goals:   Poyas 2, Motlop 2, Armdtrong 2, Heffernan, Sautner, Williams, P Johnson, Gallagher

Best:  Ward, Poyas, Warnock, Biddlecombe, O'Keefe, Gadsen

Norm Goss Medal: D.Ward

 

B:	C. Johnson	M. Warnock	A. Biddlecombe
HB:	D.Ward	C.Liddell	M.Gadsden
C:	D.Gallagher	S.Godfrey	G.Rigoni
HF:	L.Williams	R.Crow	C.Heffernan
F:	P.Johnson	N.Saunter	S.Armstrong
FOLL:	M.Jamar	S.Motlop	S.O'Keeffe
I/C:	P.Summers	E.Poyas	P.Kennedy
	M.Bate
COACH:	M.Williams

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2006

Crowd: 6,000 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	4.3.27	6.4.40	11.9.75	13.13.91
Geelong:	2.2.14	4.4.28	6.5.41	11.7.73

Goals:   Sautner 3, Motlop 2, Smith 2, Biddlecombe 2, Liddell, Wheatley, Gallagher, Dunn

Best:  Read,  Motlop, Gallagher, Wheatley, Summers , Nicholson

Norm Goss Medal: P.Read

 

B:	A.Biddlecombe	M.Warnock	A.Nicholson
HB:	C.Bizzel	R.Ferguson	C.Liddell(C)
C:	D.Gallagher	P.Read	P.Wheatley
HF:	E.Poyas	R.Crowe	S.Motlop
F:	L.Dunn	N.Sautner	N.Smith
FOLL:	S.Neaves	P.Summers	G.Rigoni
I/C:	C.Lamb	N.Jones	S.Valenti
	C.Johnson
COACH:	M.Williams

Edited July 26, 2016 by Fifty-5

[mo64 5,208]

11 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I've probably missed a few.  I thought premiership success and culture would benefit MFC but it didn't.

We played finals in 3 of the 4 years, so it certainly wasn't a hinderance. The club's culture has gone pear shaped since Daniher got the flick, and the club has never seemed to be interested in winning to this day.

As others have pointed out, the Geelong dynasty was made up of kids who played in a VFL premiership. The Bulldogs 2014 VFL team was made up of their current young guns. And 5 players from the 2015 Box Hill premiership team were running around in the all powerful Hawks team last week.

Nasher's notion of putting Oliver on ice is ludicrous.

 

[drdrake 3,035]

28 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I've probably missed a few.  I thought premiership success and culture would benefit MFC but it didn't.

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2000

Crowd: 8,652 @ Waverley Park

Sandringham	4.6.30	8.10.58	11.14.80	15.18.108
North Ballarat	0.5.5	3.5.23	5.8.38	11.11.77

Goals:   Saunter 6, Templeton 2, B. Beams 2, S.Pitt 2, Haynes 1, L.Williams 1, S. Febey 1

Best:  Lidell, Pitt, Maloney, Febey, Haynes, Macgeorge

Norm Goss Medal: R.Maloney

B:	M.Grant	A.Coghlan	H.Tregear
HB:	T.Broadbridge	R.Hayward	C.Liddell
C:	A.Gehling	D.Macgeorge	R.Maloney
HF:	S.Pitt	C.Templeton	M.Febey
F:	B.Beams	N.Saunter	M.Haynes
FOLL:	J.Shanahan	S.Godfrey	C.McKellar
I/C:	B.Oakley	D.Lynch	S.Chilsholm
	L.Williams
COACH:	G.Yeats

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2004

Crowd: 8,196 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	3.3.21	7.7.49	9.11.63	9.13.67
Port Melb	2.3.15	36.5.41	7.7.49	9.9.63

Goals:   Sautner 4, Williams 2, Crowe, Gallagher, Sylvia

Best:  Rigoni, Sylvia, Bell, Crowe, Sautner, Fisher

Norm Goss Medal: G.Rigoni

B:	D.Bell	R.Ferguson	N.Carroll
HB:	T.Broadbridge	C.Lamb	P.Walsh
C:	D.Gallagher	G.Rigoni	C.Liddell ©
HF:	L.Williams	R.Crowe	T.Conroy
F:	S.Armstrong	N.Sautner	C.Sylvia
FOLL:	M.Jamar	S.O'Keefe	A.Fisher
I/C:	A.Bishop	M.Warnock	M.Gadsden
	A.Biddlecombe
COACH:	M.Williams

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2005

Crowd: 9,000 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	2.4.16	4.6.30	9.12.66	11.17.83
Werribee	3.1.19	4.6.30	5.7.37	11.8.74

Goals:   Poyas 2, Motlop 2, Armdtrong 2, Heffernan, Sautner, Williams, P Johnson, Gallagher

Best:  Ward, Poyas, Warnock, Biddlecombe, O'Keefe, Gadsen

Norm Goss Medal: D.Ward

 

B:	C. Johnson	M. Warnock	A. Biddlecombe
HB:	D.Ward	C.Liddell	M.Gadsden
C:	D.Gallagher	S.Godfrey	G.Rigoni
HF:	L.Williams	R.Crow	C.Heffernan
F:	P.Johnson	N.Saunter	S.Armstrong
FOLL:	M.Jamar	S.Motlop	S.O'Keeffe
I/C:	P.Summers	E.Poyas	P.Kennedy
	M.Bate
COACH:	M.Williams

 

Sandringham Football Club - VFA Premiers 2006

Crowd: 6,000 @ Princes Park

Sandringham	4.3.27	6.4.40	11.9.75	13.13.91
Geelong:	2.2.14	4.4.28	6.5.41	11.7.73

Goals:   Sautner 3, Motlop 2, Smith 2, Biddlecombe 2, Liddell, Wheatley, Gallagher, Dunn

Best:  Read,  Motlop, Gallagher, Wheatley, Summers , Nicholson

Norm Goss Medal: P.Read

 

B:	A.Biddlecombe	M.Warnock	A.Nicholson
HB:	C.Bizzel	R.Ferguson	C.Liddell(C)
C:	D.Gallagher	P.Read	P.Wheatley
HF:	E.Poyas	R.Crowe	S.Motlop
F:	L.Dunn	N.Sautner	N.Smith
FOLL:	S.Neaves	P.Summers	G.Rigoni
I/C:	C.Lamb	N.Jones	S.Valenti
	C.Johnson
COACH:	M.Williams

Correct, looking at those sides really only Mark Jamar and Nathan Jones developed into good AFL footballers, the rest Rigoni, Bizzell, M Febey had good AFL Careers. I suppose you can add in Dunn and Armstrong(@West Coast)

 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Winning VFL flags hasn't hurt the Hawks or Bulldogs.

[Diamond_Jim 11,679]

There was a saying about winning the B&F medal for the VFL Reserves as they were:

It went: Good to win one but you do not want to win two !

We had a guy.... Brian Keogh who won two. Eventually he left the Dees and went to St Kilda where if I recall he had an okay career

TBH... hard to get excited by Casey unless the win/loss is relevant to the development of the younger players and/or maintaining form in the older players.

Years ago I liked the VFA as a separate comp. (Followed the Preston Bullants) but the AFL have just sucked the air/interest out of the lower level comp.

[P-man 13,154]

The Footscray side that won the 2014 VFL flag featured players like Johannisen, Redpath, Dickson, Campbell and Jong. All of them took a significant step forward in their AFL careers last year and havent looked back.

I'm leaning towards the taste of success not being the worst thing for belief and development 

[stuie 7,374]

The way Mahoney and Roos have talked about the list has been about bringing a core young group of players through together, which I liken to the way North did a similar thing in the 90s bringing through a core group from their under 18s who formed a strong bond through that shared experience which carried over into the way they performed as a unified team.

One thing that I've noticed this year which I've not seen in us for probably 15 years is a growing sense of trust in each other on the field. It's not all the way there yet, and some players (particularly the older ones) are having to fight their nature a little bit to do it, but the close mateship of many of the players, the familiarity with each other and the bond of experiencing AFL footy together is surely partly responsible for that, as well as the "play on at all costs" game plan which almost forces trust.

This is why I'm on the fence about this. I think it would be really beneficial for our group of youngsters to experience VFL success and finals together, but it's only worth it if some of the key future AFL players (possibly Oliver, Weed, Hulett, Kennedy, ANB, OMac, Wagner, JKH, Salem, Brayshaw and Harmes) are involved in it. Roos talks a lot about growing relationships, and you do that by shared experiences, so if a big chunk of that group can do it together then it's worth it.

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by stuie

[Ricky P 757]

Has to be on a case by case basis. Surely not worth risking long term injury to play VFL finals. But playing VFL finals is more educational than pre-season training so I'd let them play generally.

[old55 21,216]

I think there's a difference in development strategies for different roles.  

We've got Frost, OMac, Hunt, Wagner playing at MFC in the backline because the important development there is to gel as an AFL unit with TMac and Jetta.  They're not going to get that at VFL level.

Meanwhile we've got Weideman, Hulett and Oliver working on specific individual attributes e.g. defensive play, spread, that they can learn at VFL level