POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 11

[olisik 4,060]

33 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Yeah, he totally cost us the game.  Jesus and FMD indeed.

 

I didn't say he cost us the game but congratulations for putting words in my mouth.

What I will say that he contributed to the loss by losing contests at half forward which prevented us from locking the ball in our 50 several times. What he also did was miss a mark in the forward pocket when the game was on the line. 

Having playing Pedo yesterday instead of Dawes would have made a big difference (if he was available).

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, AdamFarr said:

Yesterday was a very clear example of Dawes doing this a number of times. We had a very good view on it from the forward pocket. He kept being caught on the wrong side of the ground. Like I said in my earlier post, if it was under instruction, okay, but if not he wasn't where he should have been, that is, up the line to provide a contest. Of course, he was there often, but he just seemed not to understand where he should be multiple times in the new game style. I found it quite worrying.

Let's agree to disagree. But if we get more of the same from him next week, I'll be calling for his head again. He should only play when Pedersen is injured and Weideman and Hulett are not match-ready.

Happy to agree to disagree, however, you can't argue that he was out of position all day if we aren't able to ascertain if it was under instruction or he was out of position.  No one would be perfect of course and I'm sure he might have been in the wrong place a few times, I just don't think it was as often as it's been alluded to.

But, as you say, let's agree to disagree.

[Ethan Tremblay 28,288]

According to Stevens on AFL Game (as we all know) Vince will be playing next week and Pannell should be the one in trouble for such a poor report.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, olisik said:

I didn't say he cost us the game but congratulations for putting words in my mouth.

What I will say that he contributed to the loss by losing contests at half forward which prevented us from locking the ball in our 50 several times. What he also did was miss a mark in the forward pocket when the game was on the line. 

Having playing Pedo yesterday instead of Dawes would have made a big difference (if he was available).

So saying we would've won had he taken more marks (which is exactly what you said) is not suggesting he cost us the game?  Righto.  

[old55 21,216]

41 minutes ago, Red and Bluebeard said:

I sat next to a Hawks supporter yesterday who was keen to talk, and had a good knowledge of the game. He said Viney was his favourite non-Hawks player, and that he was both disappointed not to see him play and very happy that he was missing the game against the Hawks. We chatted away during the game, but towards the end he commented that he was very impressed with both the Melbourne defence and the general spirit shown by the side. I think we agreed that the difference in the game was that the Hawks were cleaner and more organised when it counted, and made less mistakes in the critical moments. But he left impressed with our improvement.

That's nice. I was surrounded by smug Hawthorn a-holes who continually whinged about the umps.  Three flags in a row and all they could do was whinge about the umps.

Did I mention I hate Hawthorn?

[olisik 4,060]

Viney and Brayshaw being out should have no bearing as the Hawks were also without Hodge Roughy and Spanger. 

[Biffen 12,298]

11 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

According to Stevens on AFL Game (as we all know) Vince will be playing next week and Pannell should be the one in trouble for such a poor report.

Pannell should be forced to watch    

Russell Crowe sing for 2 hours on end.

Only Rusty and him can be so terrible, never  get sacked,and still get another gig.

[Binmans PA 25,892]

39 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

That's nice. I was surrounded by smug Hawthorn a-holes who continually whinged about the umps.  Three flags in a row and all they could do was whinge about the umps.

Did I mention I hate Hawthorn?

I would have taken a potential compliment like 'I'm really impressed with your improvement' or some such line from a Hawthorn fan as patronising. 

34 minutes ago, olisik said:

Viney and Brayshaw being out should have no bearing as the Hawks were also without Hodge Roughy and Spanger. 

Lol, I had completely forgotten about Hodge. All those guys will be out in a year or two anyway. The Hawks are aging and may well just fall off a cliff in the next year or two. As Geelong will and North.

[Sir Why You Little 34,407]

8 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

I would have taken a potential compliment like 'I'm really impressed with your improvement' or some such line from a Hawthorn fan as patronising. 

Lol, I had completely forgotten about Hodge. All those guys will be out in a year or two anyway. The Hawks are aging and may well just fall off a cliff in the next year or two. As Geelong will and North.

Nought will. Don't count the other 2 out

They set the modern standard

[Webber 9,964]

34 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

So saying we would've won had he taken more marks (which is exactly what you said) is not suggesting he cost us the game?  Righto.  

Losing battle Wiseblood. His card is marked by some on here regardless of evidence or I suspect future form to the contrary. I've said it on here before, so excuse me if you've read it, but I had a long chat to Jesse Hogan's dad last year at the last game (GWS, Etihad), by pure chance as both he and I were floating around the ground level area and I'd praised Jesse for a good goal, to which he, standing next to me, offered 'that's my son'. Sounds odd I know, but he then talked a lot about Jesse growing up, etc. was very interesting. Jesse's favourite person at the club to have next to him in the forward line is Chris Dawes, because of his presence, footy smarts, physicality and work rate. Still, he's a dud apparently. 

[hemingway 7,583]

4 minutes ago, Webber said:

Losing battle Wiseblood. His card is marked by some on here regardless of evidence or I suspect future form to the contrary. I've said it on here before, so excuse me if you've read it, but I had a long chat to Jesse Hogan's dad last year at the last game (GWS, Etihad), by pure chance as both he and I were floating around the ground level area and I'd praised Jesse for a good goal, to which he, standing next to me, offered 'that's my son'. Sounds odd I know, but he then talked a lot about Jesse growing up, etc. was very interesting. Jesse's favourite person at the club to have next to him in the forward line is Chris Dawes, because of his presence, footy smarts, physicality and work rate. Still, he's a dud apparently. 

Interesting insight

[Binmans PA 25,892]

28 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Nought will. Don't count the other 2 out

They set the modern standard

They're both more gettable than ever these days, SWYL. That's not to say they won't feature heavily in finals this year, but their glory days are over, IMO.

27 minutes ago, Webber said:

Losing battle Wiseblood. His card is marked by some on here regardless of evidence or I suspect future form to the contrary. I've said it on here before, so excuse me if you've read it, but I had a long chat to Jesse Hogan's dad last year at the last game (GWS, Etihad), by pure chance as both he and I were floating around the ground level area and I'd praised Jesse for a good goal, to which he, standing next to me, offered 'that's my son'. Sounds odd I know, but he then talked a lot about Jesse growing up, etc. was very interesting. Jesse's favourite person at the club to have next to him in the forward line is Chris Dawes, because of his presence, footy smarts, physicality and work rate. Still, he's a dud apparently. 

If Dawes can improve his game I will happily say so. And as I have said elsewhere in this thread, I think Dawes was previously really important for Hogan (taking pressure off Hogan and another KPD away from his area), but in the new game style, I think Dawes is less important. 

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,388]

The wheels are slowly turning and we are starting to become a strong side. We play them again in round 20 and if we don't beat them then we will definitely get them next season. It will be so sweet over the next 5-6 seasons when we start beating them by 10 goals, I hate their smugness.

We've got the right young players we've just got to persist with them through the good and bad. Definitely need to look at bringing in established talent in the off-season to complement the youngsters, Prestia, Hurley possible targets and we really need to bring one of these guys in!

The thing I really enjoyed is that we no longer look intimidated and we took it up to them physically. Incredibly it was a lot of the younger guys who enjoyed doing this which bodes well for the future. It's frustrating at the moment but I can really see the direction and have a great feeling about the next few years.

[Webber 9,964]

4 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

The wheels are slowly turning and we are starting to become a strong side. We play them again in round 20 and if we don't beat them then we will definitely get them next season. It will be so sweet over the next 5-6 seasons when we start beating them by 10 goals, I hate their smugness.

We've got the right young players we've just got to persist with them through the good and bad. Definitely need to look at bringing in established talent in the off-season to complement the youngsters, Prestia, Hurley possible targets and we really need to bring one of these guys in!

The thing I really enjoyed is that we no longer look intimidated and we took it up to them physically. Incredibly it was a lot of the younger guys who enjoyed doing this which bodes well for the future. It's frustrating at the moment but I can really see the direction and have a great feeling about the next few years.

You're being way too sensible for an impatient and often ignorant commentariat, IDIG. I agree with all you say, but because we will finish on 7 or 8 wins again and similar ladder position, having been passed by Carlton and possibly St.Kilda, there'll be a lot of unnecessary explaining and defence of our seeming lack of progress. We are clearly on the way, but only a minority are going to see it unfortunately. It's a numbers driven world, and our superficial numbers are going to suggest we are going nowhere. 

[Binmans PA 25,892]

11 minutes ago, Webber said:

You're being way too sensible for an impatient and often ignorant commentariat, IDIG. I agree with all you say, but because we will finish on 7 or 8 wins again and similar ladder position, having been passed by Carlton and possibly St.Kilda, there'll be a lot of unnecessary explaining and defence of our seeming lack of progress. We are clearly on the way, but only a minority are going to see it unfortunately. It's a numbers driven world, and our superficial numbers are going to suggest we are going nowhere. 

No way we only win 7 or 8 games. We'll win our 10+ games. Those calls that we'll only win 7 are premature. We'll manage another 5 wins.

Edited June 5, 2016 by AdamFarr

[Webber 9,964]

4 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

No way we only win 7 or 8 games. We'll win our 10+ games. Those calls that we'll only win 7 are premature. We'll manage another 5 wins.

I like your optimism AF. Care to predict them? 

[Demon Dynasty 15,203]

2 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

Dawes is 27 year old premiership player, who despite coming back from injury and playing in difficult marking conditions, has demonstrated now over a period of time at Melbourne that he can't take marks overhead, runs to the wrong places and get consistently gets burnt off on the rebound. He's had more than ample chances to improve his game and he hasn't.

Oscar McDonald on the other hand is a young KPD who needs time to develop and is improving with every game. His flaws are still present, but he's already a better kick than his brother. He needs to work on his decision making and core strength/strength in the contest.

I'd argue Dawes does the exact opposite to our structure. He hampers it. When Pedersen plays he takes the second ruck duties, when Dawes plays Watts still has to take second ruck duties. This takes Watts away from our forwardline. The guy who's kicked the second-most goals for us.

Dawes doesn't offer enough. He's in a similar mould to his ex-team mate Travis Cloke. He's too one dimensional - he's not multi-positional, which is something Roos has tried to breed in this group. 

I would have agreed previously when posters would say Roos clearly likes him and would pick him first. However, with the game style we have now, we've no room for a one-dimensional leading forward who can't mark and rarely hits the scoreboard. The 'Dawes straightens us up' rhetoric is also another example of flawed group-think.

Dawes doesn't choose to ruck or not to i wouldn't think Adam. That's a result of the match day coaches i would have thought. Nothing is left to chance now. A poor decision by them yesterday IMO.

[Demon Dynasty 15,203]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Pannell should be forced to watch    

Russell Crowe sing for 2 hours on end.

Only Rusty and him can be so terrible, never  get sacked,and still get another gig.

Are you saying me mate Rusty can't sing Biff?

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Rusty Nails

[boydie 653]

2 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Dawes doesn't choose to ruck or not to i wouldn't think Adam. That's a result of the match day coaches i would have thought. Nothing is left to chance now. A poor decision by them yesterday IMO.

I'd say its more to do with continuity rather than choice, when Pedersen went out we had no second ruck so we gave the job to Watts who has done it admirably for a couple of weeks before Dawes has come in.

Now that Dawes has come in we could have given that job to him but then we're taking away a role that Watts may be getting used to. Anyway Dawes playing as second ruck in the past has not been any better than Watts, and knowing his body he'll be out the side with the next month and we would then have to give the role back to Watts.

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,388]

Just now, Webber said:

You're being way too sensible for an impatient and often ignorant commentariat, IDIG. I agree with all you say, but because we will finish on 7 or 8 wins again and similar ladder position, having been passed by Carlton and possibly St.Kilda, there'll be a lot of unnecessary explaining and defence of our seeming lack of progress. We are clearly on the way, but only a minority are going to see it unfortunately. It's a numbers driven world, and our superficial numbers are going to suggest we are going nowhere. 

I'm a patient man..... I actually think we will still win 10-11 games and will finish ahead of Carlton, Collingwood and St Kilda.

The main reason I'm so optimistic is I see a side coming out every week with the majority of players under the age of 25, whereas those three teams mentioned all have a large number of players in the 25-30 bracket.

Yesterday we had the following:

25 or under= 17 players

22 or under= 11 players

So half of our side was under the age of 22. The fact they were able to hold their own and take it up to a side like Hawthorn in the wet is a credit to those guys.

This is why I'm optimistic. 

[Binmans PA 25,892]

44 minutes ago, Webber said:

I like your optimism AF. Care to predict them? 

I shouldn't be stupid enough to predict them. What I have said is that we'll win games we expect to lose and lose games we expect to win. But for the sake of my previous post, let's go with the following. We'll win 5 games from the following matches: Collingwood, Adelaide, Fremantle, St Kilda, West Coast, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Carlton, Geelong. Obviously, we won't win all of them, but we'll manage 5 of those. If we get on a roll, who knows, more could be possible. The beauty of having a young side is that often they aren't hamstrung by fear of failure and the fear of past defeats.

[Sir Why You Little 34,407]

1 hour ago, AdamFarr said:

They're both more gettable than ever these days, SWYL. That's not to say they won't feature heavily in finals this year, but their glory days are over, IMO.

If Dawes can improve his game I will happily say so. And as I have said elsewhere in this thread, I think Dawes was previously really important for Hogan (taking pressure off Hogan and another KPD away from his area), but in the new game style, I think Dawes is less important. 

Hawthorn & Geelong may dip for 1-2 seasons. But they won't crash and burn

nought might tho

[Binmans PA 25,892]

54 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Dawes doesn't choose to ruck or not to i wouldn't think Adam. That's a result of the match day coaches i would have thought. Nothing is left to chance now. A poor decision by them yesterday IMO.

I'd say they either don't believe he'll go close to breaking even (which is a problem for Dawes long-term if so) or that they felt that first game back, wet conditions, his body needed a week playing a simple forward role. If that was the thinking, we'll see Dawes rucking next week.

Edited June 5, 2016 by AdamFarr

[titan_uranus 22,219]

5 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

Yeah, burned by Bern. You mean the NBA playing Australian Olympian basketballer? Joe Ingles is a hell of a lot more famous outside the AFL-centric fishbowl that is Melbourne than our mate Bernie.

Good for Ingles.

His Tweet was infinitely more garbage than anything Vince did.

2 hours ago, olisik said:

Viney and Brayshaw being out should have no bearing as the Hawks were also without Hodge Roughy and Spanger. 

Spangher doesn't count, he's barely a fringe player.

So yes, they're without Hodge and Roughead. We were without Brayshaw, Garland, M Jones, Lumumba, Salem and Viney, all of whom are either best 22 or much closer to it than Spangher.

I think that's a relevant difference in injury lists.

[Demon Dynasty 15,203]

1 hour ago, boydie said:

I'd say its more to do with continuity rather than choice, when Pedersen went out we had no second ruck so we gave the job to Watts who has done it admirably for a couple of weeks before Dawes has come in.

Now that Dawes has come in we could have given that job to him but then we're taking away a role that Watts may be getting used to. Anyway Dawes playing as second ruck in the past has not been any better than Watts, and knowing his body he'll be out the side with the next month and we would then have to give the role back to Watts.

Unless you have access to the 'hit outs to advantage' stat from Champion we have no way of really knowing who is better as a pinch hitting ruck Boydie, including Pedo. Pedo just happens to have played more there with Dawes out injured so often.

Watts has played maybe 3 or 4 games in that role. Dawes many more than that i would have thought. I am guessing the coaches wanted him in his first up game to just settle into a role up forward as well as getting his match fitness up without asking/demanding too much of him physically. Probably do the same in the next week or so until he does. Then push him into an occasional ruck relief role if his body holds up. He is prone to injury agreed and always a risk but only the FD/Dawes himself would know how his body is doing. Not sure how you would know he is going to be "out" of the side within the next month or so unless you have a crystal ball.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Rusty Nails